rabies?

Wow. I've been bitten numerous times by gerbils and other small animals. It's not that big a deal.

Captive born animals are almost never exposed to rabies. Assuming none of your animals have been bitten by a random rat or bat that was infected, they're fine. Domestic mice/rats/gerbils/hamsters are just that - domestic. We wouldn't have them as pets if they all carried rabies. I work with wild squirrels and am not required to get the rabies series for that, so domestic animals should be fine.

My guess is the doctors are over reacting becuase of the recent meerkat incident at the MN Zoo. But since they're putting your niece on the rabies series (I agree - WTF?), I don't think they need to kill your animals. From what I understood of the MN zoo incident, it was an either/or situation - get the girl rabies shots, or else kill the meerkats, not do both.

I'm really not sure how to go about getting the hospital to see that they don't need to kill your pets. I'm assuming none of your animals show symptoms (either very docile, or the stereotypical extreme aggression and attacking without being provoked (not necessarily foaming at the mouth though)), otherwise you'd be more alarmed about that. Have you ever been bitten by any of them? Is there any organization you can call that might support you?

I googled some more, and it looks like the hospital was way out of line telling you to euthanise immediately (besides being complete idiots about domestic hamsters, mice, rats, and gerbils not being rabies vector species).

Can you contact your state health department and tell them the story? You should be able to keep the animals in quarantine and observe them. If they haven't had behavior changes recently, and don't during the quarantine, they're fine. Try to point the hospital towards some links about rabies (preferably from the CDC or another reputable organization).

Wow, that hospital is batshit insane. No offense, but really-- I wouldn't go there, as they obviously don't know a thing about rabies or how it is transmitted!

Small, domestic animals like gerbils and mice are NOT rabies vector species AT ALL. Why? First of all, if they live in captivity they would not be exposed to rabies at all. Secondly, their metabolisms are so fast that even if they did somehow manage to acquire rabies, they would likely die within hours.

For another thing, due to the positioning and length of their teeth, bites from animals like gerbils are generally "dry bites" that don't transmit any saliva.

Gerbils do not have rabies, and they do not transmit it to humans. Simple as that.

I've been bitten by gerbils, hamsters, sugar gliders, squirrels and possums (I used to volunteer at a wildlife rehab center) and I've never gotten rabies nor have I ever been told I needed rabies shots.

You worked with possums and weren't required to get the rabies series?? The wildlife rehab center I work at requires us to...they're listed as rabies vector species. I haven't gotten the vaccines yet, but I"m planning on it.

http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/ClientED/rabies.asp says:

If my child is bitten by a pet gerbil do I need to worry about rabies?

No. Small pet mammals such as gerbils, hamsters, and guinea pigs are born and raised in captivity and therefore they are never exposed to the rabies virus. Additionally, if a hamster, gerbil, guinea pig, or even a rat were attacked by a rabid animal they would not likely survive the attack and live long enough to get disease and transmit the virus.

Good find!

I can't really help with the hospital, but I have to say that my heart goes out to you. We have two cats, a dog, and recently added two gerbils to the family, and if this happened to me, I can't imagine what I'd do. It's obvious that you really care about your animals. :)

I hope that somehow your point of view gets across. I hope to be a biologist someday, and the insensitivity (plus the lack of basic logic) that these doctors are showing is really astounding to me. Could this qualify as malpractice?

Wow. Where do you live?

Since they are rescue animals you cannot say that they are not infected, however Simple observation should let you know if there is something wrong with your animals. Granted, it would be extended observation, but it should be enough. If these jackasses haven't heard of rodent's biting when a little girl is poking at them through a cage, then they need to go back to school.

At this point, what else are they going to do, even if they do find rabies in the brain? I could understand if they needed to find out quickly what strain and treat it specificly, but the rabies treatment is not that specific.


From the CDC:
The quarantine period is a precaution against the remote possibility that an animal may appear healthy, but actually be sick with rabies. To understand this statement, you have to understand a few things about the pathogenesis of rabies (the way the rabies virus affects the animal it infects). From numerous studies conducted on rabid dogs, cats, and ferrets, we know that rabies virus inoculated into a muscle travels from the site of the inoculation to the brain by moving within nerves. The animal does not appear ill during this time, which is called the incubation period and which may last for weeks to months. A bite by the animal during the incubation period does not carry a risk of rabies because the virus is not in saliva. Only late in the disease, after the virus has reached the brain and multiplied there to cause an encephalitis (or inflammation of the brain), does the virus move from the brain to the salivary glands and saliva. Also at this time, after the virus has multiplied in the brain, almost all animals begin to show the first signs of rabies. Most of these signs are obvious to even an untrained observer, but within a short period of time, usually within 3 to 5 days, the virus has caused enough damage to the brain that the animal begins to show unmistakable signs of rabies. As an added precaution, the quarantine period is lengthened to 10 days.

So what you need to do is ask if you've had any of these little ones longer than 15 days. (Extra time on your end to show you are being careful, and not just emotional. This is a game of apearance and wits, you MUST appear rational and in control. Right now they are the ones reacting emotionally, you must be the logical one or they will lose because thier fear outweighs yours.)

If you've had them all for longer than that, you know that the chance of infection is increadibly unlikely unless you have a rabid something else going through your house. Still, agree to OBSERVATION, but not disection until one of the animals shows signs of infection.

Sad part is, if one of them does, you're going to loose the entire cage. You're just going to have to say goodbye, and be thankful that you saved the rest.

But at this point they cannot hope to gain anything out of killing all the animals medically that could not be gained through quarintine and observation.

Came here via via

Hospital staff can't just come and seize animals without aid of the police, you can try calling them and asking them if they would cooperate with a seizure of small pets in a situation like this, somehow I think they have better things to do :/
I also wonder what the opinion is of Animal Protection Services, they know their shit and if they believe the hospital is freezing animals to death for no good reason they might bitchslap the staff.

It mostly sounds like they're trying to intimidate you into surrending the animals without a fight, unfortunately it seems to be working on your mother. Give her all the info about how small rodents are unlikely carriers of rabies to her.

Also, if you know people who might be willing to hide the animals, try smuggling them out of the house and to them. Even if it means you can't get them back it'd be better they live out their days under someone else's care than have them all be put down by a couple of idiots with a God-complex.

If they ask where the animals went just tell them they were so rabid they chewed their way through the steel bars of the cage and left to devour all the annoying children of the world who put their fingers in the cages of animals they don't know!

Uhm, or just tell them they escaped.

Hope this situation can be resolved without killing anything :/

This is just terrible. From what everyone else has said, it seems highly unlikely that any of your little beasties have rabies, and more likely that the hospital is vastly overreacting (I mean, come on, children don't know how to handle small animals, no matter how docile-- of course she got bitten!). I wish you and your rodents the best.

Well, I think the hospital is overreacting. You can present them cold hard facts, maybe agree to a quarantine period but put your foot down at euthanasia.

Or you could find a friend that will take your animals until all this blows over and then get them back. In the meantime you could go to that friend's house everyday to feed, play with, and talk to your pets.

FYI. My gerbil Lancer bit the veterinarian and the vet tech pretty badly while they set his broken leg. They didn't get rabies.

*blinks in disbelief*

I don't think it's even possible for such small rodents to get rabies is it? To get rabies, it has to be passed from one animal to another via bodily fluids, normally being bitten. How do this hospital think your rodents got rabies in the first place? A gerbil would hardly survive a dog bite. Or am I just being totally naive and stupid? I guess I don't know much about rabies and issues because it's not really an issue here (UK) but I do know that the only way they have for being tested for rabies right now is dissecting the brain, which obviously means killing the animal.

I hope it's all resolved, though and your rodents don't have to die. :(

I can't tell you how you can get out of it, but your whole situation is completely ridiculous. Unless you acquired your pets within the last few days, there's no way they could have gotten rabies from anywhere (unless it's from a wild rat or something in the house, which is extremely unlikely). It's normal for small house pets to bite people, and I've never heard of anyone worrying about rabies from it before. Even if your pets do have rabies, since your niece is getting shots for it regardless, killing your pets won't make an ounce of difference as to whether she gets it or not. It sounds to me like your aunt is fear-mongering, and if you live in the US or somewhere without public health care, that the hospital staff are just trying to get as much money out of this situation as possible. Your family is being completely unreasonable in expecting you to do what they say.

Good luck! I'm so sorry this has happened.

I think legally, animal control must give the orders for euthanasia. That's why doctors are doctors and animal control are animal control.

Until this gets cleared, is there any way a friend can watch over them for a while until your mother and the doctors get a better understanding as to how moronic this whole situation is?

I agree, move them out of this house. Next they'll try to steal them while she's at work or something. >.>;;;;

Do you know how many times I've been bitten by my rodents? Without indicent??

I think you should explain these creatures are pets, not random rodents you found in the desert/sewer, find the hospital AND the aunt articles on how rabies is transmittied, who is and is not a carrier, and who it is transmitted, teeth in front, saliva in back, dry bites....

Talk to a vet on this, get articles made for vets, doctor e doctor. Not to say we on LJ are not knowledgeable, but we may not stand up as well if this ever goes to court/warrants are made for the sezuire of the pets/more asinine BS comes your way. I don't think the hospital alone can make you give up the pets. AnAlso, call the animal control area and ask, use another phone if you need to, "Can these creatures transmit rabies, and can you explain this to XYZ hospital staff?"

In the future, do not let anyone under the age of 7-10 touch your pets without you or an adult there. I bet you wouldn't take her to the hospital for a shot over this. I told my mom I got bitten, and she didn't leap up, run me to the ER, we just got out the hydrogen peroxide and bandages.... and I'm 24 to tell the tale! I got yelled at for teasing the hamster, we didn't test the brains!

Even if the aunt promises to buy you "new rabid hamsters" that'll really make letting them test yours easier... They're just as much love as big dogs, I totally understand. I've had lots of small rodents as pets! Love rats and gerbils myself!!

Re: Do you know how many times I've been bitten by my rodents? Without indicent??

Also, have you let your creatures outside where they could be in contact with anything that had rabies? Like oh, LOST outside for days? At a park controlled on a leash, but had an encounter with a wild animal? Then chances are they are clean. And she needs to say which creature, not just "mouse" My ex's 2 year old cousin knew more words and could tell more animals apart than this!

It's pointless to let your pets die for a fairly assured NEGATIVE test because your aunt, the child's MOTHER refused to watch her child.

Isn't there a test that they can do on the child instead? I thought that the affor mentioned meerkat problem was that all the meerkats were killed and tested because the mom didn't want to test her child.

Why did they let the child see the animals if they were afraid they were rabid?

This isn't SPO, but yeah, I thought the Meerkats were killed BECAUSE the child's parents refused and thus they HAD to know whether she needed the "painful shots" and the only way to tell was to test the post-mortem brain tissue. Again same case, it wasn't clear which animal bit her (the fact she call them ALL "mouse" means just killing the mice is not a valid choice), so they all must be tested. If the rodents here do in fact have rabies, but the child is being treated within hours of being bitten, what would that give us?

An already treated stupid child and/or stupid aunt for not watching the child more carefully around rodent pets she seems dangerous enough to send her kid to the hospital over, and a grieving owner that lost her pets through no fault of her own. Less there is a second step to rabies besides giving the human thought to be bitten shots than I'm unaware of.

Let us know how it turns out?

http://www.petplace.com/small-mammals/maintaining-your-pet-rodent-s-health/page1.aspx

Veterinary Care

Vaccination is not performed in pet rodents, since vaccines are not available to protect them against contagious diseases. Rabies vaccination, which is commonly performed in other pet mammals, is not necessary in pet rodents because they have not been shown to be susceptible to the rabies virus.


http://www.co.monterey.ca.us/health/ForPhysicians/pdf/050630Rabies.pdf
http://www.health.state.ny.us/diseases/communicable/zoonoses/rabies/docs/algorithm.pdf
http://www.lpch.org/HealthLibrary/ParentCareTopics/BitesStings/AnimalorHumanBite.html
http://www.ratbehavior.org/WildRatDisease.htm#Rabies
http://www.ratethics.org/rabies.htm
http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dvrd/rabies/Ques&Ans/q&a.htm
http://www.springerlink.com/content/y652530h8r748175/

http://wo-pub2.med.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/WebObjects/PublicA.woa/6/wa/viewHContent?website=wmc+physicians&contentID=1450&wosid=OSf39TVGgsjiI8VIjifZfw
For the child's caretaker!!
How can animal bites and rabies be prevented?

Do not try to separate fighting animals.
Avoid strange and sick animals.
Leave animals alone when they are eating.
Keep pets on a leash when out in public.
Select family pets carefully.
Never leave a young child alone with a pet.
All domestic dogs and cats should be immunized against rabies and shots kept current.
Do not approach or play with wild animals of any kind, and be aware that domestic animals may also be infected with the rabies virus.
Supervise pets so they do not come into contact with wild animals. Call your local animal control agency to remove any stray animals.

Print as much info as you can on "These animals cannot GET rabies, let alone TRANSMIT it", and find a friend, or friends, to come and take care of your animals.

Don't keep your animals in the house. Crazy parents are.. crazy. They will not stop until they get their way. Put your animals out of harms way, however you have to.. even if it means boarding them somewhere professional.. And when this whole thing blows over (Once the rabies vaccinations are over, and once the parents calm down and whatever, you can probably get your animals back.)

Seriously, sometimes all it takes is informing them. Show them as much info as you can, but first.. get your animals out of the house QUICK.

Explain to her and the doctors that the animals can't possibly have rabies. That might change their mind. Any information you can find from a reliable source will help. Or you could sneak out(I'm not sure how many you have) and get a note from your vet. That might help more.
If your mom still insists, I'd recommend that you never forgive her. From what you've said, she seems fairly uncaring and very unwilling to be flexible or at least do some research to help her daughter. How terrible.

I hate to advocate never forgiving somebody, but gnomestress is right. If I were you, I'd also try to move out of that place as fast as I could. I know you're still young, but I couldn't imagine having to live with people as unreasonable as that.

You're doing the right thing. Is there someone you trust who will keep them for you? (Just so you don't need to worry if you leave the room.)

I can't believe the hospital suggested you freeze them! That's cruel and totally unnecessary. In the unlikely event that one of them *does* have rabies (or they have reasonable grounds to suspect it does), a *vet* could euthanize the animal with a shot.

You just don't stick living beings in the freezer.

Dude its pretty much impossible that they would have rabies, if they've never been in contact with outside animals. Tell your mom to fuck off and keep your babies safe. What the hell makes a rat 'fancy' anyways?

Gerbils

Today i just got bit by my gerbil and i am freaking out!What if it has rabies?I hate my gerbil now.I flicked him on the nose.When jerry my gerbil bit me on the thumb, my thumb was gushing blood and i screamed.It still hurts very badly.I am so so so sorry that your animals have to get put to sleep.

Gerbils

My other message is probably above this one. so if gerbils are not outside or haven't been bit or anything it probably doesn't have rabies? i have been bit numerous times but worse this time than any other. my cousin was holding it upside down by his tail so it may have made him mad. what do you think?

Gerbils

My other message is probably above this one. so if gerbils are not outside or haven't been bit or anything it probably doesn't have rabies? i have been bit numerous times but worse this time than any other. my cousin was holding it upside down by his tail so it may have made him mad. what do you think?